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really




PostSubject: Paul, Jesus   4/20/2013, 23:57

Question:

John 11

17 When Jesus arrived, he found that Lazarus had already been in the tomb for four days.
18 Now Bethany was near Jerusalem, about fifteen stadia away,
19 and many of the Jews had come to Martha and Mary to console them about their brother.
20 As soon as Martha heard that Jesus was coming, she went and met him, while Mary stayed at home.
21 Martha told Jesus, “Lord, if you had been here, my brother would not have died.
22 But even now I know that whatever you ask of God, he will give it to you.”
23 Jesus told her, “Your brother will rise again.”
24 Martha told him, “I know that he will rise again in the resurrection on the last day.”
25 Jesus told her, “I am the resurrection and the life. The person who believes in me, even though he dies, will live.
26 Indeed, everyone who lives and believes in me will never die. Do you believe that?”

27 “Yes, Lord,” she told him. “I believe that you are the Messiah, the Son of God, the one who was to come into the world.”

Paul says:

2 Timothy 2

18 Who concerning the truth have erred, saying that the resurrection is past already; and overthrow the faith of some.


Is Paul contradicting Jesus?
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really




PostSubject: Re: Paul, Jesus   4/21/2013, 00:02

This possible contradiction is not the first one that I have found either.
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FredandMary




PostSubject: Re: Paul, Jesus   4/21/2013, 01:56

jesus said IAM THE RESURRECTION WE ARE THE CHRILDREN OF THE RESURRECTION (SOME TO EVERLASTING LI
FE)=251=THE BODY OF JESUS CHRIST=251 THE 36TH PRIME NUMBER 36=JUDA WE ARE IN THE RESSURECTION
IN CHRIST FRED AND MARY
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Daauthor50




PostSubject: Re: Paul, Jesus   4/21/2013, 02:22

There is no contridiction. Jesus at his first coming fulfilled the Firstfruit offering. His resurrection was actually over 12 hours before anyone arrived at his tomb. The first day of that week was the Festival of Firstfruits and is possibly why he could not be touched because he had not made the offering unto his Father in heaven. What was the offering?

The bible states that many of those who had died were seen in the city (Matthew 27:52-53). These were that Old Testament saints released from Abrahams bosom to be taken to heaven, hence the scripture given in 2 Timothy 2.

DavidJ
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really




PostSubject: Re: Paul, Jesus   4/21/2013, 10:01

Hi FredandMary & DavidJ,

Recently I was talking to people on a forum who believe that nobody except for Jesus have gone up to Heaven, and that the first resurrection has not yet happened. but I believe that people have gone up to Heaven and are in the heavenly Jerusalem, as scriptures show people were raised from their tombs. Would this not be the first resurrection? And then to come is the second general resurrection of all.

Those I were discussing with used that verse plus other verses of Paul's to show that I was wrong. Paul is still not making sense to me.


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Ed J

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PostSubject: Re: Paul, Jesus   4/21/2013, 12:14

Hi Really,

I believe Jesus was showing people that he had the power of resurrection, after all
Jesus said he did what he saw his father do, and God did certainly resurrect people.

But what I believe the Apostle Paul is talking about is what Jesus said here about the last day:

"For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me. And this
is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but
should raise it up again at the last day. And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which
seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day." (John 6:38-40)

_____________
God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org

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really




PostSubject: Re: Paul, Jesus   4/21/2013, 13:10

Ed J wrote:
Hi Really,

I believe Jesus was showing people that he had the power of resurrection, after all
Jesus said he did what he saw his father do, and God did certainly resurrect people.

But what I believe the Apostle Paul is talking about is what Jesus said here about the last day:

"For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me. And this
is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but
should raise it up again at the last day. And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which
seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day." (John 6:38-40)

_____________
God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org


Okay Ed thanks, I see that.

But, do you believe that some have already been risen from the dead, and would that not be the first resurrection?

Do you believe that some are in the Heavenly Jerusalem at this moment in time?
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Ed J

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PostSubject: Re: Paul, Jesus   4/21/2013, 13:30

really wrote:
Okay Ed thanks, I see that.

(1) But, do you believe that some have already been risen from the dead, and would that not be the first resurrection?

(2) Do you believe that some are in the Heavenly Jerusalem at this moment in time?
Hi Really,

1) Yes, I believe that is so (Matt 27:52-53); and they certainly would not be hurt in the second death, right?
2) Since the Heavenly Jerusalem is "Spiritual", I would certainly believe that is the case. smiling

_____________
God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org
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really




PostSubject: Re: Paul, Jesus   4/21/2013, 15:14

Ed J wrote:
really wrote:
Okay Ed thanks, I see that.

(1) But, do you believe that some have already been risen from the dead, and would that not be the first resurrection?

(2) Do you believe that some are in the Heavenly Jerusalem at this moment in time?
Hi Really,

1) Yes, I believe that is so; and they certainly would not be hurt in the second death, right?
2) Since the Heavenly Jerusalem is "Spiritual", I would certainly believe that is the case. smiling

_____________
God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org

Ed, okay, so we agree with that then smiling


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Ed J

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PostSubject: Re: Paul, Jesus   4/21/2013, 15:50

Hi Really,

See my Avatar?
It's a depiction of God's "HolyCity"(117) coming down from God out of Heaven.
This is as close as the ones wanting to see a physical city are going to get. . grinning

_____________
God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org
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Ed J

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PostSubject: "Thy walls": refer to the "HolyCity"!   4/21/2013, 16:29

Hi Really,

......................................[י] Yod [ה] Ha [ו] Vav [ה] Hey
......................................"Hand" ."Behold" ."Nail" ."Behold"

The definitions of these four Hebrew letters (of God's name, also called the tetragrammaton),
tie Jesus to YHVH and to God's "Holy City"(117) in a way most Christians have never been taught.

"But Zion said, [The LORD JEHOVAH] hath forsaken me, and my Lord [Jesus Christ] hath forgotten me.
Can a woman forget her sucking child, that she should not have compassion on the son of her womb?
yea, they may forget, yet will I not forget thee. Behold, I have Graven thee upon the Palms of my Hands;
thy walls (thy walls refer to God's "Holy City"! Isa 60:14 and Rev 21:2-3) are continually before me." (Isa 49:14-16)


Witnessing to a worldwide audience in behalf of YHVH!
יהוה האלהים (JEHOVAH GOD) YÄ-hä-vā hä ĔL-ō-Hêêm!
"עד" (Ed) (Isaiah 49:16 / Isaiah 60:14 / Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org (Eccl.9:12-16)
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really




PostSubject: Re: Paul, Jesus   4/21/2013, 19:38

Hi Ed, Thanks.

Okay I am studying it now.
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really




PostSubject: Re: Paul, Jesus   4/22/2013, 12:11

When I have prayed and asked questions, words of Paul's in the bible have sometimes been shown to me. Example: 1 Cor 2:1or 2nd Thes 2.

I was thinking that perhaps it is only SOME of the Epistles of Paul. So I Googled it.

Regarding the scripture that I am having difficulty with, I found this on Wikipedia:

Quote "Most modern critical scholars argue that 2 Timothy was not written by Paul but by an anonymous follower, after Paul's death in the First Century..." Unquote.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Second_Epistle_to_Timothy
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really




PostSubject: Re: Paul, Jesus   4/22/2013, 12:21

Quote:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pauline_epistles

"Several of the letters are thought by most modern scholars to be pseudepigraphic, that is, not actually written by Paul of Tarsus even if attributed to him within the letters themselves, or, arguably, even forgeries intended to justify certain later beliefs. Details of the arguments regarding this issue are addressed more specifically in the articles about each epistle.

These are the 7 letters (with consensus dates) considered genuine by most scholars (see main article Authorship of the Pauline epistles: section The undisputed epistles):

    First Thessalonians (ca. 51 AD)
    Philippians (ca. 52-54 AD)
    Philemon (ca. 52-54 AD)
    First Corinthians (ca. 53-54 AD)
    Galatians (ca. 55 AD)
    Second Corinthians (ca. 55-56 AD)
    Romans (ca. 55-58 AD)


The letters thought to be pseudepigraphic by the majority of modern scholars include:

    Pastoral epistles
    First Timothy
    Second Timothy
    Titus


The letters on which modern scholars are about evenly divided are:

    Ephesians
    Colossians
    Second Thessalonians


An anonymous text that nearly all modern scholars agree was probably not written by Paul is:

    Hebrews



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really




PostSubject: Re: Paul, Jesus   4/22/2013, 12:23

Quote:

From Wikipedia:

Marcion of Sinope

Marcion of Sinope, a bishop of Asia Minor who went to Rome and was later excommunicated for his views, was the first of record to propose a definitive, exclusive, unique canon of Christian scriptures, compiled sometime between 130-140 CE. (Though Ignatius did address Christian scripture, before Marcion, against the perceived heresies of the Judaizers and Docetists, he did not publish a canon.) In his book Origin of the New Testament Adolf von Harnack argued that Marcion viewed the church at this time as largely an Old Testament church (one that "follows the Testament of the Creator-God") without a firmly established New Testament canon, and that the church gradually formulated its New Testament canon in response to the challenge posed by Marcion.

Marcion rejected the theology of the Old Testament entirely and regarded the God depicted there as an inferior Being. He claimed that the theology of the Old Testament was incompatible with the teaching of Jesus regarding God and morality. Marcion believed that Jesus had come to liberate mankind from the authority of the God of the Old Testament and to reveal the superior God of goodness and mercy whom he called the Father. Paul and Luke were the only Christian authors to find favour with Marcion, though his versions of these differed from those later accepted by mainstream Christianity.

Marcion created a canon, a definite group of books which he regarded as fully authoritative, displacing all others. These comprised ten of the Pauline epistles (without the Pastorals and Hebrews) and Luke's Gospel. It is uncertain whether he edited these books, purging them of what did not accord with his views, or that his versions represented a separate textual tradition.

Marcion's gospel, called simply the Gospel of the Lord, differed from the Gospel of Luke by lacking any passages that connected Jesus with the Old Testament. He believed that the god of Israel, who gave the Torah to the Israelites, was an entirely different god from the Supreme God who sent Jesus and inspired the New Testament.

Marcion termed his collection of Pauline epistles the Apostolikon. These also differed from the versions accepted by later Christian Orthodoxy.

In addition to his Gospel and Apostolikon, he wrote a text called the Antithesis which contrasted the New Testament view of God and morality with the Old Testament view of God and morality, see also Expounding of the Law#Antithesis of the Law.

Marcion's canon and theology were rejected as heretical by the early church; however, he forced other Christians to consider which texts were canonical and why. He spread his beliefs widely; they became known as Marcionism. In the introduction to his book "Early Christian Writings", Henry Wace stated:

A modern divine… could not refuse to discuss the question raised by Marcion, whether there is such opposition between different parts of what he regards as the word of God, that all cannot come from the same author.

The Catholic Encyclopedia of 1913 characterized Marcion as "perhaps the most dangerous foe Christianity has ever known."

Everett Ferguson in chapter 18 of The Canon Debate quotes Tertullian's De praescriptione haereticorum:

Since Marcion separated the New Testament from the Old, he is necessarily subsequent to that which he separated, inasmuch as it was only in his power to separate what was previously united. Having been united previous to its separation, the fact of its subsequent separation proves the subsequence also of the man who effected the separation.

Note 61 of page 308 adds: "Wolfram Kinzig suggests that it was Marcion who usually called his Bible testamentum" [Latin for testament].

Other scholars propose that it was Melito of Sardis who originally coined the phrase Old Testament, which is associated with Supersessionism.

Robert M. Price, a New Testament scholar at Drew University, considers the Pauline canon problem: how, when, and who collected Paul's epistles to the various churches as a single collection of epistles. The evidence that the early church fathers, such as Clement, knew of the Pauline epistles is unclear. Price investigates several historical scenarios and comes to the conclusion and identifies Marcion as the first person known in recorded history to collect Paul's writings to various churches together as a canon, the Pauline epistles. Robert Price summarizes,

But the first collector of the Pauline Epistles had been Marcion. No one else we know of would be a good candidate, certainly not the essentially fictive Luke, Timothy, and Onesimus. And Marcion, as Burkitt and Bauer show, fills the bill perfectly.

If this is correct, then Marcion's role in the formation and development of Christianity is pivotal.

I think I got that from here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marcionism
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